Labeling a person a 'criminal' due to their national origin

[curious]

Hello,
I am 51, I am white, I am from the rural southern united states. My ancestors came here in 1848 from Ireland at the height of the potato famine and found jobs in the coal mines of Appalachia.

I must admit that I have gone through a lot of angst over the illegal immigration issue.

On the one hand, I am a product of immigration, so I am for it. The idea of America in the 1700s and 1800s "Come here and work hard and make a life for yourself" being a welcome message sent to the whole world, appeals to me. My initial take on immigration was "if you can make it to the United States, you are welcome to come here".

On the other hand, we have three very big problems because of our screwed up immigration policies. So, the reality is that this "open arms" approach is not working.

First, the idea of making someone a criminal because of their national origin just offends me. The NAZIs did this to entire groups of people. If you were Jewish you were a criminal because you were Jewish. A gypsy? Criminal. Polish? Criminal. Russian? Criminal. Making a person a criminal because of their national origin makes it impossible for them to have any human rights and makes them easy prey to be preyed upon. Landlords, employers, neighborhood thugs can all take advantage of the "criminal". An employer doesn't pay them minimum wage? Where do they go to report the employer? They don't. The landlord won't fix the plumbing? Where do the "criminals" go to report the code violation? Nowhere. Thugs extort the local business owned by the "criminal"? Or rob the elderly criminal? Where do the "criminals" report the crime? They don't.

Some would say "well, it is their fault for being in the country illegally". And, they would be right. But, the federal government has winked its eye at illegal immigration for so long, millions of people now have lives here. So, we become the NAZIs due to a technicality?

We have to separate out what to do about people who are already living here from the issue of how to keep out more illegal immigrants in the future.

This first part is pretty simple. One of the problems that illegal immigrants cause is that they do not pay taxes. They don't pay social security tax. If they are self employed, say in the construction business, they don't pay unemployment tax, they don't have proper insurance, they are not bonded, licensed, etc. This is easy to understand. They don't have al these things because they cannot get them. So, this causes another problem. Illegal immigrants in trades can undercut legal citizens because the legal citizens must pay all these government mandated things and the illegals don't pay them and could not pay them if they wanted to.

So, the first thing is to have a "it is legal for you to be in the country and work BUT you have to pay taxes and if you are self employed you have to meet all the requirements just like everyone else" status for people who are here now. You don't even have to call this Amnesty. Just create a Visa classification for it, and give illegal immigrants a time period in which they must obtain the visa.

Second, a wide open border makes it impossible to differentiate legitimate border crossings from border crossings by real criminal elements. When you call an entire class of people "criminals" it becomes very difficult to weed out the real criminals. Yes, career criminal immigrants are a real problem. But these criminals have nothing to do with Rosario who comes here to work in a day care center and is raising her daughter and is doing everything to be a good member of society. Drug cartels, criminal gangs, street gangs are flocking to the United States and are taking control of inner cities and suburban areas. These criminals often prey on the legal and illegal immigrants in these communities. These people are dangerous and are purposely coming here to expand their criminal enterprises.

Since they can cross the wide open border comingled with the other non-dangerous "illegals", it is impossible to identify them and keep them out.

The solution to this problem is also very simple. We need a special Visa class for people traveling to the United States from Central and South America that makes it easy for them to establish that they are coming here to work, go to school, shop, visit, or do some other worthwhile activity. There must be a background check to make sure the person is not a career criminal and an in person interview so that trained agents can weed out the dangerous elements.

To enforce this a wall similar to Hadrian's wall must be bulit along the US/Mexican border. The purpose of Hadrian's wall was to facilitate legitimate travel and trade across the northern frontier and completely block illegal travel and trade across the northern frontier. Hadrian's wall was not a fence, it was 30 feet tall, 30 feet wide and had a gate every mile. Customs agents, soldiers, merchants, wagons, and other people of all occupations needed to facilitate travel and commerce were stationed all along the border with offices, warehouses and quarters built into the wall itself.

The United States needs to build a similar wall. The purpose of the wall will be to facilitate legal and legitimate travel and trade while stopping illegal and illigitemate travel and trade. Gates would have to be provided every mile or every few miles with enough trained personnel that the legal travelers could quickly be approved to cross.

Taking the length of the US/Mexican border and using the border guard to mile or border ratio used by the East Germans at the height of the cold war it would take 250,000 border agents to fully secure the wall and provide enough people to process travelers that the legal travelers could pass pretty much unimpeded.

Along with air bases, radar installations and patrol aircraft committed to keeping illegal flights out of US airspace and new naval bases and fleets of patrol ships committed to keeping illegal shipping out of US ports, the border could be secured so that people having legitimate business can pass through quickly and people who do not have legitimate business will be deterred or apprehended.

I knwo that some people will say that a wall like this is "racist" but it is not. Securing the border then makes it easy to create a special Visa program for people already in the US and for people coming from central and south America. Without a wall like ths such a Visa program is impossible to enforce.

Third, the ability of people who are here illegally to benefit beyond their wildest dreams without needing to have any kind of legal status has to stop. An illegal immigrant should have ZERO access to food stamps, welfare, subsidized housing, or any other taxpayer funded programs. Even people who are here under the special Visa program that I propose should not have access to these programs. You want to come here to work hard? Great, come on in. You want to come here to live off the taxpayer? Sorry, we don't allow that. The incentive has to be "Come to America and help make America a better place and work hard and benefit your family". The incentive cannot be "Come to America and partake of the cornucopia of free hand outs".

Also, the US Constitution has to be changed so that a child born in the United States is only a legal citizen if one of the parents has some form of legal status. The days of mothers coming across the border illegally just so they can have their baby in the US so that the baby will be a US citizen have to end. You want to come to the United States and have a baby and you have the money to pay the hospital bill? Fine, come on in. BUT, that baby is a citizen of the mother's country of legal residence, NOT a US citizen.

To summarize, the three steps proposed would solve the illegal immigration issue:
1. Create a special Visa class for people who are already here which entitles them to work AND PAY TAXES and gives the a legal status so that they cannot be taken advantage of by employers, landlords, and criminals.
2. Build a wall along the US/Mexican border similar to Hadrian's wall which eliminates illegal border crossings and facilitates legl border crossings. Staff this wall with enough agents that people on legitimate business can pass across quickly and criminals can be deterred and apprehended. CReate a special Visa class for central and south America which makes it legal and straightforward for people to come here to do something constructive.
3. Eliminate the appeal of freebies to potential illegal immigrants. Come here and work hard if you want. But, you won't be coming here to live off the taxpayers. And don't come here to have your baby just so the baby can be a US citizen.

I know that some of this sounds hard hearted, and I will be the first to admit that it is. But, it is necessary. My first inclination to the illegal immigration issue was "If you can make it to the United States then you deserve the right to be here". But after looking at the evidence, I think that we have to know who is coming and whether they are dangerous or not.

I'm sure that some will say I am racist because I am not proposing a Hadrian's wall for the US/Canadian border, but we do not have millions of illegal immigrants pouring across the US/Canada border. So, what would such a wall accomplish? If we do get millions of illegal immigrants pouring across the US/Canadian border then I would propose a similar wall for that border.

[ENUFF31]

Hello,
I am 51, I am white, I am from the rural southern united states. My ancestors came here in 1848 from Ireland at the height of the potato famine and found jobs in the coal mines of Appalachia.

I must admit that I have gone through a lot of angst over the illegal immigration issue.

On the one hand, I am a product of immigration, so I am for it. The idea of America in the 1700s and 1800s "Come here and work hard and make a life for yourself" being a welcome message sent to the whole world, appeals to me. My initial take on immigration was "if you can make it to the United States, you are welcome to come here".

On the other hand, we have three very big problems because of our screwed up immigration policies. So, the reality is that this "open arms" approach is not working.

First, the idea of making someone a criminal because of their national origin just offends me. The NAZIs did this to entire groups of people. If you were Jewish you were a criminal because you were Jewish. A gypsy? Criminal. Polish? Criminal. Russian? Criminal. Making a person a criminal because of their national origin makes it impossible for them to have any human rights and makes them easy prey to be preyed upon. Landlords, employers, neighborhood thugs can all take advantage of the "criminal". An employer doesn't pay them minimum wage? Where do they go to report the employer? They don't. The landlord won't fix the plumbing? Where do the "criminals" go to report the code violation? Nowhere. Thugs extort the local business owned by the "criminal"? Or rob the elderly criminal? Where do the "criminals" report the crime? They don't.

Some would say "well, it is their fault for being in the country illegally". And, they would be right. But, the federal government has winked its eye at illegal immigration for so long, millions of people now have lives here. So, we become the NAZIs due to a technicality?

We have to separate out what to do about people who are already living here from the issue of how to keep out more illegal immigrants in the future.

This first part is pretty simple. One of the problems that illegal immigrants cause is that they do not pay taxes. They don't pay social security tax. If they are self employed, say in the construction business, they don't pay unemployment tax, they don't have proper insurance, they are not bonded, licensed, etc. This is easy to understand. They don't have al these things because they cannot get them. So, this causes another problem. Illegal immigrants in trades can undercut legal citizens because the legal citizens must pay all these government mandated things and the illegals don't pay them and could not pay them if they wanted to.

So, the first thing is to have a "it is legal for you to be in the country and work BUT you have to pay taxes and if you are self employed you have to meet all the requirements just like everyone else" status for people who are here now. You don't even have to call this Amnesty. Just create a Visa classification for it, and give illegal immigrants a time period in which they must obtain the visa.

Second, a wide open border makes it impossible to differentiate legitimate border crossings from border crossings by real criminal elements. When you call an entire class of people "criminals" it becomes very difficult to weed out the real criminals. Yes, career criminal immigrants are a real problem. But these criminals have nothing to do with Rosario who comes here to work in a day care center and is raising her daughter and is doing everything to be a good member of society. Drug cartels, criminal gangs, street gangs are flocking to the United States and are taking control of inner cities and suburban areas. These criminals often prey on the legal and illegal immigrants in these communities. These people are dangerous and are purposely coming here to expand their criminal enterprises.

Since they can cross the wide open border comingled with the other non-dangerous "illegals", it is impossible to identify them and keep them out.

The solution to this problem is also very simple. We need a special Visa class for people traveling to the United States from Central and South America that makes it easy for them to establish that they are coming here to work, go to school, shop, visit, or do some other worthwhile activity. There must be a background check to make sure the person is not a career criminal and an in person interview so that trained agents can weed out the dangerous elements.

To enforce this a wall similar to Hadrian's wall must be bulit along the US/Mexican border. The purpose of Hadrian's wall was to facilitate legitimate travel and trade across the northern frontier and completely block illegal travel and trade across the northern frontier. Hadrian's wall was not a fence, it was 30 feet tall, 30 feet wide and had a gate every mile. Customs agents, soldiers, merchants, wagons, and other people of all occupations needed to facilitate travel and commerce were stationed all along the border with offices, warehouses and quarters built into the wall itself.

The United States needs to build a similar wall. The purpose of the wall will be to facilitate legal and legitimate travel and trade while stopping illegal and illigitemate travel and trade. Gates would have to be provided every mile or every few miles with enough trained personnel that the legal travelers could quickly be approved to cross.

Taking the length of the US/Mexican border and using the border guard to mile or border ratio used by the East Germans at the height of the cold war it would take 250,000 border agents to fully secure the wall and provide enough people to process travelers that the legal travelers could pass pretty much unimpeded.

Along with air bases, radar installations and patrol aircraft committed to keeping illegal flights out of US airspace and new naval bases and fleets of patrol ships committed to keeping illegal shipping out of US ports, the border could be secured so that people having legitimate business can pass through quickly and people who do not have legitimate business will be deterred or apprehended.

I knwo that some people will say that a wall like this is "racist" but it is not. Securing the border then makes it easy to create a special Visa program for people already in the US and for people coming from central and south America. Without a wall like ths such a Visa program is impossible to enforce.

Third, the ability of people who are here illegally to benefit beyond their wildest dreams without needing to have any kind of legal status has to stop. An illegal immigrant should have ZERO access to food stamps, welfare, subsidized housing, or any other taxpayer funded programs. Even people who are here under the special Visa program that I propose should not have access to these programs. You want to come here to work hard? Great, come on in. You want to come here to live off the taxpayer? Sorry, we don't allow that. The incentive has to be "Come to America and help make America a better place and work hard and benefit your family". The incentive cannot be "Come to America and partake of the cornucopia of free hand outs".

Also, the US Constitution has to be changed so that a child born in the United States is only a legal citizen if one of the parents has some form of legal status. The days of mothers coming across the border illegally just so they can have their baby in the US so that the baby will be a US citizen have to end. You want to come to the United States and have a baby and you have the money to pay the hospital bill? Fine, come on in. BUT, that baby is a citizen of the mother's country of legal residence, NOT a US citizen.

To summarize, the three steps proposed would solve the illegal immigration issue:
1. Create a special Visa class for people who are already here which entitles them to work AND PAY TAXES and gives the a legal status so that they cannot be taken advantage of by employers, landlords, and criminals.
2. Build a wall along the US/Mexican border similar to Hadrian's wall which eliminates illegal border crossings and facilitates legl border crossings. Staff this wall with enough agents that people on legitimate business can pass across quickly and criminals can be deterred and apprehended. CReate a special Visa class for central and south America which makes it legal and straightforward for people to come here to do something constructive.
3. Eliminate the appeal of freebies to potential illegal immigrants. Come here and work hard if you want. But, you won't be coming here to live off the taxpayers. And don't come here to have your baby just so the baby can be a US citizen.

I know that some of this sounds hard hearted, and I will be the first to admit that it is. But, it is necessary. My first inclination to the illegal immigration issue was "If you can make it to the United States then you deserve the right to be here". But after looking at the evidence, I think that we have to know who is coming and whether they are dangerous or not.

I'm sure that some will say I am racist because I am not proposing a Hadrian's wall for the US/Canadian border, but we do not have millions of illegal immigrants pouring across the US/Canada border. So, what would such a wall accomplish? If we do get millions of illegal immigrants pouring across the US/Canadian border then I would propose a similar wall for that border.

RE: curious on Sat Jul 11, 2009 12:49 pm
I do not accept your Amnesty bid under any color of card or document. We do not have enough natural resources to take care the world. Your proposal would mean they would have to live here legally and they will infiltrate into society, schools, and the job market. No they do not stay in the fields once here. We give them a free college education and that is de facto citizenship by any definition. They do not give up their country or citizenship, as they are required anyway. They have determined not to assimilate but be proud foreigners and thus separatist. This is detrimental to our union as per the Constitution.

My Texas Senator Cornyn is trying this with an amendment he has recently submitted and he will no longer get my vote or his open border Republican partner in crimes against the United States, Senator Hutchison.

I have Irish, Scotch, German, British, France, Norman and others through thousands of years of heritage but it was a along time before the mass of people showing up on our borders uninvited. My many times great grand pappy arrived in 1609 as an indentured slave in VA. Your family is why we stiffened up our immigration laws to begin with. Those of you that landed in New York, created your own problems. You were sequestered into the Yankee Army and fought against my Southland not to mention the lawlessness such as Tamany? Hall and the rest.

Miss Liberty is between the United States of America and France, no one else. She was not erected as a symbol of immigration but of the Liberty France helped us obtain from foreign powers. The poem attached to her base was written by a Jew, Emma Lazarus an immigrant (ca 1909) and is in the Israeli museum.

Hadrian’s Wall was built to keep invading forces out from the North when the Romans occupied the Southern half of what is now England. I do agree we need a wall to defend us against the illiterate third world invasion. The burden and destruction they bring with them is intolerable.

I also recognize the Republican Cheap Labor for business platform and I reject it totally. It does nothing for America or Americans. I speak as descendant of four hundred years this year. Republicans are now offering this compromise in place of total Amnesty for 20 million illegal’s plus up to 29 so called family members for each one from Mexico and points south to support those businesses that donate millions to their coffers. The cost of cheap labor has finally hit and hit hard.

No more Amnesty under any name or illusion to supply cheap labor that has undermined our nation of hard workers and culture, which is outstanding and unique in all the world. Where is your farm located? If they pay taxes and such they will continue to be elibgable for handouts as your people will not pay for their keep such as health care, food, and other so called entitlements of the past. Therefore, there will be no gain for America or its legal AMERICAN citizens.

Your cheap labor supply line for a business philosophy and the Bill Gates mentality are not acceptable to me.

[ras6057]

ENUFF31 you are back. How was your vacation? We all missed you. Someone was asking about you yesterday.

Are you eligible to write again instead of "elibgable." The best part of reading your post is your ugenglish. I do enjoy reading what you intend or try to write about your hearitage and the best part is your sentence structure "Arrive in 1609 my many time great grand pappy as an indentured slave in VA." The best word is "indentured." According to the dictionary that means the beginning of the line in a sentence. I am sure that is not what you mean. That is okay, we all know what you mean.

What you wrote is an interesting read about you and what you have written. Nice having you back. Signed by Ray Askins

[Calamagrostis]

A couple of suggestions for posts:

Please keep them short at 300 words maximum, after that I start to just skim over the message and don't really read it anyway. Get to the point and your message will be more effective.

Also don't hit the "quote" button that pastes the whole message that you are responding too into your message, just address your message to the poster. Copying the message and then copying the copy etc. makes the the whole forum too long, less readable and confusing.

Enuff31 welcome back.

[Calamagrostis]

While we need to take action here in the U.S. I wanted to bring up the whole global economic picture again. Obama was just talking about how farmers in Africa need to be able to market their produce, but he did not mention the major reason why they can't, which is the huge government subsidies that the devoloped countries use to destory third-world agriculture. For example at a market in Ethiopia where Italian grapefruit is cheaper than that grown in Ethiopia. The Republicans are always trumpeting the free market except where the farmers in their state might actually have to compete with farmers in Mexico and other countries. When peasants in Mexico see the price of corn drop so low that they can't even survive guess where they go?

[gpfaff]

[Off topic posts and posts containing personal attacks have been deleted by administrator]

[ENUFF31]

While we need to take action here in the U.S. I wanted to bring up the whole global economic picture again. Obama was just talking about how farmers in Africa need to be able to market their produce, but he did not mention the major reason why they can't, which is the huge government subsidies that the devoloped countries use to destory third-world agriculture. For example at a market in Ethiopia where Italian grapefruit is cheaper than that grown in Ethiopia. The Republicans are always trumpeting the free market except where the farmers in their state might actually have to compete with farmers in Mexico and other countries. When peasants in Mexico see the price of corn drop so low that they can't even survive guess where they go?

Thank You for your opinion and here is mine:

Oh yes, the poor peasants in Mexico where will they go? Their brothers are leaving this country because it is a sinking ship and that is in the news under self-deporting. The present Lead Liberal Democrat has only exacerbated the Bush financial crash and we will not recover in this lifetime. He has hired approx 27 czars to do his work for him as he does not have the ability to run the country and his empty speeches are not producing anything. His fellow Liberal Democrats are balking at his proposals as we speak.

The Liberal Democratic czars are circumventing Congress and making policy of their own. Sotomayer will fit right in since she likes to create law in her own racists’ way.

You said the word Republican in a derogatory way so that allows me say something about Democrats aka as Liberals unless this site is biased.

The world trade thingy is out of our hands. None of our politicians is responding to us so your point is without any meaning. Both parties are doing the same thing only in different disguises. The world has asked the lead Liberal Democrat to give up the American dollar, as they are now afraid to invest in it. We survive by the grace of loans from the world and they are in charge. They want us to transfer to the new World Money scheme to facilitate world rule or as they are saying in the news, “to level the playing field world wide”. Now if you do not know what that means, those countries accustomed to having a nice living will belike your poor peasants in Mexico.

I suggest you ask France and other EU countries about your concern because our present government is not going to help you find a solution to your problem. As for the rest, if our government enforced the law and the constitution we would have no problems within our nation.

If you want results, the next step I would suggest is disbanding the Untied States Chamber of Commerce and bury Free Trade. Then build the fence and enforce our laws if you really want change. Further, notice that campaign promises are fading fast in this administration. Of course, it is a good thing because we could not withstand the kind of changes offered by this foul ball administration.

[ENUFF31]

A couple of suggestions for posts:

Please keep them short at 300 words maximum, after that I start to just skim over the message and don't really read it anyway. Get to the point and your message will be more effective.

Also don't hit the "quote" button that pastes the whole message that you are responding too into your message, just address your message to the poster. Copying the message and then copying the copy etc. makes the the whole forum too long, less readable and confusing.

Enuff31 welcome back.

Calamagrostis on Sun Jul 12, 2009 4:11 pm
I rebuke your unauthorized suggestions. They are not part of the formal format and I will do what others have the privilege to do. The word count is open and the quote button is available to others so I will use as I deem fit.

[ras6057]

Isn't ENUFF31 a nice guy? The world should be filled with more like him labeling a person a "criminal" due to their national origin. Even to those that like him. By his own words, we know where he comes from - Texas did he say or was it some place else? Signed by Ray Askins

[Calamagrostis]

Enuff, I am not telling you what to do, I am just mentioning some of the things that make it harder for me to read and understand the posts. If you want to write a thousand words go ahead.